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#6407277 Jul 17, 2012 at 10:59 PM
112 Posts
Evening all;

As most of you probably know, the guild is not doing so well. An option on the table to deal with this is a possible merger with Trinosce, an RP heavy guild we are already allied with. I'd like to hear people's thoughts on this, so please discuss below. If you haven't checked out their website, http://trinosce.enjin.com/ , you should. See what you think about them.

Discuss below!

"I pray the world, and Jerusalem, can accommodate such a rarity as a perfect knight."
-Tiberias, "Kingdom of Heaven"

"RETREAT!" "HELL!" "RETREAT!" "HELL!"
"Two Five."
-"Battle: Los Angeles"

"But I'm tryin', Ringo. I'm tryin' real hard to be the Shepard."
-Jules, "Pulp Fiction"
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#6407435 Jul 17, 2012 at 11:54 PM
109 Posts
I would have no problem with a merge. :)
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#6408925 Jul 18, 2012 at 08:34 AM
34 Posts
Telu'lai is unlikely to approve of the merge, and will likely not accompany the guild in a merger with Trinosce, due to general distrust of the organization and their leader.

OOC, I have mixed feelings. I believe there are other potential "cures" to our situation with the guild. Active recruitment, and better communication between officers and members being two key ones.

Regardless of the outcome, Telu'lai has formed a bond with various members of TCV and no matter her fate in terms of guild affiliation, she will haunt and pester you guys 'til you can't stand it anymore.



"There is no death... there is only... me."
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#6408997 Jul 18, 2012 at 08:53 AM
12 Posts
I have no problems from an OOC standpoint, but IC..well Ald is not too fond of people who summarily toss him from a room and then perform headcounts to keep tabs on people because their leader wants some alone time with a member of the Vanguard.
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#6409096 Jul 18, 2012 at 09:24 AM
73 Posts
I suppose it depends on how the merger went down. Someone loses a guild name out of it. Is the idea they get absorbed into us or we into them or are we forming a new different guild?

Part of the real problem is a lack of driven leadership at least in regard to goals/recruitment. I'm not complaining or throwing blame here especially as I'm not volunteering to step up and help in that regard. (Well I did try to get a plot driven rp campaign off the ground but that fizzled.).

None of my characters are really ICly invested in the Vanguard so without knowing much about the other guild it could be good or bad. I don't know much about this allied guild and I can't get into their forums to really read up on them. Unfortunately I'm not a huge fan of barfly rp so I haven't even had any superficial contact with them.
Merkaile (Gunslinger), Dalemir (Jedi Guardian), Jhaeda (Vanguard), Atte'vella (Sage), Thatni (Mercenary)
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#6409138 Jul 18, 2012 at 09:34 AM
112 Posts
i continue.to be bewildered by the toons angry about being asked to leave and then made sure not to sneak in on what was supposed to be a private meeting . . .

And as you hit the nail on the head, Mal, I:ll say that part of it is that Jet will probably be leaving SWTOR soon and I frankly do not want to be GL. So, we're exploring options.

"I pray the world, and Jerusalem, can accommodate such a rarity as a perfect knight."
-Tiberias, "Kingdom of Heaven"

"RETREAT!" "HELL!" "RETREAT!" "HELL!"
"Two Five."
-"Battle: Los Angeles"

"But I'm tryin', Ringo. I'm tryin' real hard to be the Shepard."
-Jules, "Pulp Fiction"
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#6409153 Jul 18, 2012 at 09:39 AM
34 Posts
#6409138 Andul-Suun Hegge wrote:

i continue.to be bewildered by the toons angry about being asked to leave and then made sure not to sneak in on what was supposed to be a private meeting . . .



Eh, it was more another guild leader suddenly barging in on a discussion among people close to Andul, demanding to speak to him privately, then taking... suspiciously secretive precautions to make sure that said meeting was not eavesdropped on.


Though that's only the surface of it. Telu has... other concerns.



"There is no death... there is only... me."
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#6409211 Jul 18, 2012 at 09:55 AM
33 Posts

While the IC motivations are interesting, and I'd love to explore them ICly, the main driving force about this discussion is the occ concept that we have officers that do not want the level of authority that has been handed over. There is a lot of responsibility in planning, and keeping everyone in check and happy that not everyone wants to do. I know I certainly don't.

A merger would be a last resort of course, but it is a path to take to hand over those responsibilities to people who are willing and capable, and familiar. Ashkri might want to hiss at a few of them, but I trust them OOCly as good people with great rp.

This isn't about IC disputes over who should leave a room. It is about letting people who feel cornered have a route out that doesn't involve them leaving all together.

With that said, I think we should open the thread to any alternative ideas on how we can chip in, or shift some responsibility so people feel less burdened.
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#6409496 Jul 18, 2012 at 11:07 AM
34 Posts
I'd be more in favor of a complete merger, rather than an absorption, so that everyone involved can have a say in who the leaders are and how the IC and OOC organization is structured. Part of our big problem is a lack of IC and OOC structure and understanding of how our characters fit into that structure.

I also think that it's important (and I doubt Trinosce's leaders will have have a problem with this) that Andul remain an officer, as he's been the most active and helpful of our players, and best represents our interests as we make the transition. That's doubly true for those of us who haven't gotten to know Trinosce's leaders as well.

"And one path we shall never choose, and that is the path of surrender, or submission." ~John F. Kennedy


"Good cop and bad cop left for the day. I'm a different kind of cop." ~Detective Vic Mackey, The Shield
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#6409888 Jul 18, 2012 at 12:35 PM
87 Posts
I like the Trinosce folks I've met, and would be okay with a merge (rather than absorption) into "Triguard" or something like that.

But, like Telu, I think there are things that can be done/tried and it isn't quite time to bury TCV. I'm willing to help in whatever capacity I'm needed.
Demons run when a good man goes to war.


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#6410698 Jul 18, 2012 at 03:15 PM
112 Posts
While I'm happy with the.outpouring of wishing to help, well, Jet asked for people to help months ago. I, Chat, and Even responded. I'm sorry guys, but now I will admit to being disillusioned about helping. Enthusiasm is great, but is anyone willing to stand up and do something with it? I am burnt out, and I know Jet is only so much better. Again, the sentiment is deeply appreciated, but few stepped up previously, and it did not work.

As for merger rather than absorption, I don't see that or think we should expect it. What we are doing is clearly not working. Their's clearly is. I'd don't think we need to reinvent a wheel because we want a hand in making it. I'd rather just enjoy the wheel.

"I pray the world, and Jerusalem, can accommodate such a rarity as a perfect knight."
-Tiberias, "Kingdom of Heaven"

"RETREAT!" "HELL!" "RETREAT!" "HELL!"
"Two Five."
-"Battle: Los Angeles"

"But I'm tryin', Ringo. I'm tryin' real hard to be the Shepard."
-Jules, "Pulp Fiction"
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#6410844 Jul 18, 2012 at 03:39 PM
34 Posts
I guess if you're really that dead set on shooting down alternative routes with pessimism, there really isn't much need to discuss it is there?



"There is no death... there is only... me."
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#6410854 Jul 18, 2012 at 03:41 PM
87 Posts
Since the over-all goal here is for everyone to enjoy themselves, I'll go with whatever option takes stress off of those who are burnt out.

I like playing the game with you folks better than I like having "The Coruscant Vanguard" floating above my characters' heads.



That said... I like the Shivtr site layout better than Enjin ones.
Demons run when a good man goes to war.


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#6411542 Jul 18, 2012 at 05:44 PM
7 Posts
I'm new here but wanted to add my thoughts from a community building standpoint.

It all comes down to the question what do all the members want their community to be? This is a game. I'm curious as to what isn't working to the goals of this community and that way I might have a better idea how a guild would address that.

But one great concept is to still have guilds but have greater organization around the external communities, twitter, forum, etc. This allows you to effectively participate as a group of guilds rather than HAVING to coordinate an entirely self contained single community inside one in-game guild.

The most successful communities I follow operate in this fashion. Functionally, they are all one label or org (AIE, Old republic dads for a few examples) but they function as guild upon guild, not just one organizational structure.

From there it is just down to scheduling events and having the guilds designate their primary/most active players who can volunteer to help specifically on events as they happen, to held with ops/FP leading and more. I see too many communities getting hung up partly because there just aren't enough people on board. Everyone's trying to run their own little team and the reality is with any sort of casual membership that just isn't feasible.

It is far better to have a large pool of people that can sign up for events and make it happen. It sounds simpler than it is, but I think that's the way for success--- to reach out and attempt to lead in the greater community will be the way to have a fun, vibrant game experience

I've come to this realization after participating in a lot of different kinds of communities, from yahoo pool Leagues that operated in one specific room on the yahoo game system, holding regular tourneys and stats tracked for everyone, to different guilds and clans in RPGs and shooters.
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#6411568 Jul 18, 2012 at 05:50 PM
34 Posts
If it's absorption rather than merger, I think I'm much less likely to come along. I'd miss being guilded with you guys, but I don't really know anyone in Trinosce, and I do know people in Shien Refugees, who have been kind enough to take me to Ops runs for a few weeks. That's hard to deny.

I know we're coming at this from a point of weakness, but it sounds like absorption isn't a very satisfying option for many of us. I don't know if others feel like this, but because I joined TCV toward the beginning and watched it grow, I was more invested in it (and in turn, more frustrated when it started to become less cohesive). I guess what I'm getting at is that it's hard to be invested in something you don't have much of a say in and didn't help build.

I think the sentiment in this thread suggests that a lot of us would rather build something new (with Trinosce's people preferably) than just let this die and join something that somebody else made.

"And one path we shall never choose, and that is the path of surrender, or submission." ~John F. Kennedy


"Good cop and bad cop left for the day. I'm a different kind of cop." ~Detective Vic Mackey, The Shield
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#6412055 Jul 18, 2012 at 07:49 PM
Militiamen
83 Posts
I'm at an inpass here.

I have been with TCV for almost a year. And it has really become a ton different from when I joined, and over the last months has changed even more so.

I would really like a change, a chance to be in an RP guild that has a good amount of members, is active, has a clearly working structure, and incredibly cool. And is fun to be a part of IC and OOC.

I love all you people in TCV and I would really hate to loose you guys.
I also think that it is not really fair to use how that meeting privacy ordeal was handled, as a really huge desciding factor. It was annoying, but happened on a spur of a moment thing.....honestly I am over it, granted it was not directed at me. (sorry lirah and telu).

I have been trying to be as helpful as I could to Andul.

I had thought of ideas and opinions of how I would like to see the merge or absorption....or phagocytosis.....go down. But honestly I am sure the best option overall will be what happens. And I am reallly really tired and my ability to articulate words is minimal.

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#6412146 Jul 18, 2012 at 08:16 PM
112 Posts
As it appears no one likes my solution to the problem, I will be resigning as an officer within the guild shortly. I will most likely be leaving the guild, as well. I -am- burnt out, and the guild is dying. I apologize that no one liked my answer to the issue, but it is the best one I have. I'd like to enjoy playing my game again, which I currently cannot.

Frankly, it sounds like everyone hates the idea of joining something new but doesn't have any good ideas as to how to fix it. I find this situation personally untenable. I'm incredibly shocked at how some people have reacted, including the low level vitriol that has crept in. This is clearly not the guild I thought it was.

Best of luck to you all.

"I pray the world, and Jerusalem, can accommodate such a rarity as a perfect knight."
-Tiberias, "Kingdom of Heaven"

"RETREAT!" "HELL!" "RETREAT!" "HELL!"
"Two Five."
-"Battle: Los Angeles"

"But I'm tryin', Ringo. I'm tryin' real hard to be the Shepard."
-Jules, "Pulp Fiction"
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#6412215 Jul 18, 2012 at 08:31 PM
73 Posts
Hopefully my post did not come off as antagonistic in any way, as it was not meant as such.

I don't think the idea of a merger is a bad one, necessarily. I just know some people are closer to this ally guild than others. I tried to go to the Trinosce website and read up on them but you have to be a member to have access to their forums.

-Adder: I just read the other post about their guild and they don't seem too out of the ordinary, and one statement did impress me:

"We welcome any kind of story arc that members would like to make guild
wide and have at tendency to go above and beyond to make sure everyone that wants to be involved gets to be involved."

That is something I felt the Vanguard as a whole could have done better with. I'm not upset or bitter about it as I know I could have shouldered my way in if I had wanted to, but that isn't my style. I'm a pretty low maintenance guildy and while I'm always eager to get involved I'm not going to throw myself at people or be a bother to anyone. RP is what you make of it and I could have done better. That being said, I would have thrived more in a guild (rp wise) that sought to suck people in. Know thyself...wasn't that one of Trinosce's tenants? ;)


I wouldn't be so quick to roll over just yet Andul. I don't think people hate the idea, it's just going to take some time/thought really. The information in the other post is definitely helpful! There's a rather different mix of people and rp styles in the guild so I wouldn't take it personally if people go different ways. A lot of us have seen the people we spent the most amount of time with in game leave for various reasons. Also, some people don't like change.
Merkaile (Gunslinger), Dalemir (Jedi Guardian), Jhaeda (Vanguard), Atte'vella (Sage), Thatni (Mercenary)
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#6412446 Jul 18, 2012 at 09:41 PM
109 Posts
Andul, I've always valued you as both a great friend and great person, and I hope you don't leave. Frankly, I have no problem with merging, being absorbed, or whatever. I just want to continue playing/RPing with you all. You're all nice and friendly, which is what kept me with this guild after all this time.

Though everyone has their moments (myself included) I see everyone here as family. All I hope is that our family 'expands' upon joining Trinosce
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#6412706 Jul 18, 2012 at 11:10 PM
Prime Consulate
68 Posts
Alright. Here's the thing.

It's clear Andul and I have been talking about ways to make the guild better recently, but I feel I have been somewhat misrepresented. I have not thrown my hands up in defeat, and although I do not see a merger as conceding to 'loss' or giving up, Andul seems convinced it is the only way to salvage the rest of the happiness of the guild members.

For those of you that wish to move into a more active and stable environment, I will make the decision easy for you: go. No one will fault you or hold residual resentment that you found happiness elsewhere. And if they do, I will personally kick their ass. I will warn you, however, that a 'grass is greener' paradigm may be forming here, and while I do not doubt the integrity and activity of Trinosce as a guild, I also do not see their guild tag as the promised land of all things happy and wonderful. They are a small group - smaller than TCV by far - but their small group is closer to one another than our larger group, and they tend to RP more often.

Now that my thoughts on the merger are out of the way, I have decided to be honest with my thoughts on leadership and the guild since what is happening seems to be exposing a sore spot among us.

The problem that TCV is facing as a whole is not nebulous or indistinct to me. I am not confused as to how to proceed, nor am I burnt out with logistics or organizational ideas or motivating. The reason the Vanguard has not recently been active is twofold.

The first is lack of participation. This can mostly be accredited to our core group of people interested in guild activity - be it end-game content, PvP or RP - leaving the Vanguard for various reasons. Khemiq, Mikael, Jace, Ararius, Adexi, Karnas, not to mention Aiden are those only off the top of my head. That's nearly an entire Ops group right there. Those of us that remain either have free time available at broadly different times of the day, play infrequently enough not to merit the devotion to long-term events, or are happy enough with (to use Mallek's term) 'barfly' RP to become complacent. This vacuum of apathy had led into a state of inertia which I have not been able to overcome despite my efforts. This, I consider a personal failing. One of my initiatives led me to the second problem we are facing.

If you knew Aiden, you knew there was one thing he was very, very good with - people. He had an uncanny knack for not only reading people, but knowing how to appease them without seeming disingenuous. He used this skill to constantly scope out new RPers and players who he thought would fit in the Vanguard, and provided us with a steady influx of fresh and interested faces. Unfortunately, while I consider myself an excellent judge of character, I am much more laissez-faire with the way that I conduct my relationships with my guildmates. To be blunt, this means I am terrible at 'recruitment'. The result is that we have stagnated, and I am not in a position to change that. I have asked for any individuals who were willing and able to step into these shoes for me, but I cannot do it myself. I see this as less of a personal failure and more of a personality failure, for which I assign myself little blame.

I am more than happy to create organizational hierarchies, orchestrate events, raids, story-lines and plot arcs, but the fact of the matter is that I will not chase after individuals to participate in anything that I have created or conceptualized. If you look back over last few months on these forums, you will find various attempts I have made at creating organization and communication between guildmates to create and positive and fun guild environment. However, I am not going to be your sole source of motivation. If our members cannot find the will, the desire, or the time to volunteer for these events, I am not going to hold them out of the blind hope that people might show up. Which led me to two things: ask for administrative help, and try to find a way to recruit more individuals. I have done these things to the best of my ability, and have not reached an acceptable level of success. For that, I am sorry.

Anyone who wishes to move to Trinosce, you are more than welcome and I would love to see you happy and having fun with the game once more. I will not be transferring any of my characters. If nothing else changes, my intention is that I will most likely 'go down with the ship', as it were.
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